The Daily Kraken

They don't see you as I do; I wish they would try to

Prof. Myers, Webster Cook, and the Eucharist

Posted by Nick Milne on July 14, 2008

This will likely be a long post, or will at least seem like a long one. Please indulge me. I plan to add things to it as necessary, though I’ll be sure to mention this when it is done.

The layout is simple enough; first comes a thorough recounting of the situation at hand. This is followed by a pair of declarations of position, and then a series of responses to and meditations upon certain factors involved in both Webster Cook’s actions and Prof. P.Z. Myers’ later response. Those who are quite familiar with the situation already may scroll down to the “Formal Statements” section of the post if they’d like to save some time.

UPDATE (7/21/08 – 4:30PM): Webster Cook, far from winning the sympathy of his student government colleagues, has been impeached.

UPDATE (7/21/08): A few items to add. Cook’s charges against CCM dismissed; new promises from Prof. Myers; other things.

UPDATE (7/18/08): Prof. Myers has appeared on “The Heart of the Matter,” a show on Catholic Radio International, in an extensive interview (an hour) on the subject at hand as well as other things. There’s some debating, some banter, and some generally genial interaction. It’s available for download at the link, but you’ll have to scroll down ever so slightly to find it. It’s under the heading, “We Need to Talk.” It is not, in my own opinion, an especially successful interview for anyone involved, but it’s worth presenting here in the interest of completeness.

UPDATE: A reader who was at the mass in question at UCF has granted permission for me to post his account below. You will find it under the “Webster Cook at the Mass” heading in the third section of this post.

UPDATE 2 (7/15): Recent developments available here. Nothing too major, but some more to flesh things out.

UPDATE 3 (7/16): More new opinions and links here, including link to Cook’s official incident report as filed with UCF and the UCF student newspaper’s editorial response to the incident.

UPDATE 4 (2PM): Still more: employee fired for sending death threats to Prof. Myers; views from an unlikely source.

The Situation

There are a number of different-yet-connected things going on here, so it would be prudent to get them all sorted out and into their proper order before moving ahead with the analysis. What follows is the story I’ve been able to piece together from several unfortunately poor news reports (and one better one), the updates provided by the religious-news-in-media watchdog service GetReligion, comments from the student at the heart of the initial controversy, as posted at the Orate Fratres blog (here and here), and from the student’s father at Vive Christus Rex! (here). In determining the course of events on the student’s end I’ve left out irate secondary sources on both sides (P.Z. Meyers, Bill Donohue) because they add little and detract much. I’ll get to them in due time.

On June 29th, Webster Cook, a student at the University of Central Florida, presented himself to receive the Eucharist at a mass being performed by representatives of his local chapter of the Catholic Campus Ministries; the mass was evidently on school property. Cook is himself a Catholic, though of what depth or devotion I couldn’t say. Whatever the case may be, what happened next is well-substantiated: instead of consuming the consecrated host as is proper and expected, Cook decided to keep it. Early reports varied as to whether this purloining was planned or a “spur of the moment” sort of thing, though I’m inclined to lean towards “planned” for reasons that shall shortly become apparent.

The reaction was swift and fairly intense. Someone watching Cook noticed he had done this and questioned him quite forcefully about it. This questioning apparently turned into an attempt at physical detainment (Update: a correspondent who was at the mass in question notes that the “assault and detainment” were apparently perpetrated by a girl half Cook’s weight; this correspondent’s full account appears later in the post), and from that point on things began to escalate horribly. Cook initially claimed that he had intended to consume the host after showing it to a non-Catholic friend who had attended the mass with him (but who had not, as is proper, presented himself for communion). As it is, though, incensed by the treatment he was receiving from those who were themselves incensed by his scandalous treatment of the Eucharist, Cook left the mass, the host still in his possession, and thereafter telescoped the incident into what he claims was an orchestrated protest of the funding of religious functions on school property. Formal complaints have been filed all around (about which more later), and the university is quite understandably vexed by the whole affair.

(NOTE: The description of Cook’s “assailant” as “a girl half his weight” is not meant to be a slander on his manliness, or anything like that. This is how she was described in the report sent to me, and it’s important to know this as a counter to the image presented by various news reports of “a woman” assaulting “a student.”)

Cook has claimed that he feels threatened after all of this, but other than this there seems to be little evidence that he has, in fact, received literal death threats per se. GetReligion wonders (not unreasonably, but it’s a stretch) if a citation of 1 Corinthians 11:28-29 may have been taken the wrong way (“For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying”). Still, more about this later.

Whatever the case may be, after some soul-searching and interaction with Catholics more patient than enraged (of which there were unfortunately many in the latter category), Cook has returned the host. He would still like to meet with the local bishop, and also to receive an apology for the treatment he received at the mass; both seem to be possible, and beneficial, options.

That might have been the end of this peculiar affair but for the efforts of two other gentlemen.

In the Catholic corner we have “Shoutin’ Bill” Donohue, president of and spokesman for the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights. On July 7th he provided this fuel for the fire:

“For a student to disrupt Mass by taking the Body of Christ hostage—regardless of the alleged nature of his grievance—is beyond hate speech. That is why the UCF administration needs to act swiftly and decisively in seeing that justice is done. All options should be on the table, including expulsion.”

This might have had all of the impact that any pronouncement from the Catholic League has (none officially and little informally), but it was instead picked up by Prof. P.Z. Myers, an associate professor at the University of Minnesota-Morris. His response to this issue has been absurdly extensive, beginning with this post (warning: vulgarity) on his popular blog, Pharyngula. Even that might have been the end of it, given Cook’s return of the host, but no; Prof. Myers upped the ante considerably:

So, what to do. I have an idea. Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers? There’s no way I can personally get them — my local churches have stakes prepared for me, I’m sure — but if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I’ll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. I won’t be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker), but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web. I shall do so joyfully and with laughter in my heart. If you can smuggle some out from under the armed guards and grim nuns hovering over your local communion ceremony, just write to me and I’ll send you my home address.

Since that post his blog has received thousands of comments (most in raucous support of his plans), and he himself has continued to press the issue every day since it became one. Naturally Bill Donohue leapt back into the fray – let it never be said that he stood idly by while outrage was being manufactured somewhere – with two more press releases from the League (here and here) directed at Prof. Myers personally. As the affair has continued to escalate, Prof. Myers has announced that he has himself received death threats related to this subject, and at least one person has been fired for sending them. In interviews since his solicitation of consecrated hosts, he has suggested that his threat to desecrate them was more in the line of satire and protest than an actual declaration of intent. Whatever the case, though, he continues to milk this for all it’s worth, and appears to take great pleasure in publishing samples of the mail he claims to have been receiving about this (here and here, for example).

This takes us more or less to the present moment. We’re at the dawn of a new work week and a new news cycle, so who knows what might happen? Only time will tell.

Formal Statements Before Proceeding Further

1. The issuing of death threats over matters of religious controversy is intolerable. It should not be done by anyone, and should be roundly condemned when it is. This is especially true in the case of Catholics, who should be mindful of our own long history with regard to both how it feels to suffer injury and death for religion’s sake, and also to the evident infamy and basic ineffectuality of dealing out such injury or death for the same reason. Consider the words of the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus, as cited so recently (and so ironically, given what followed) by Pope Benedict XVI in his address to the University of Regensburg:

The emperor [...] goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. “God”, he says, “is not pleased by blood – and not acting reasonably (σὺν λόγω) is contrary to God’s nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats… To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death…”

It seems incredible to add this, but it is also the case that issuing death threats you have no intention whatever of carrying out is also a species of lying, and would be morally illicit on those grounds alone quite apart from the more troubling aspects involved. The bottom line: don’t do it.

2. The unconsecrated host is, indeed, a small disc of wheat with no more value than what its owner paid for it. You can get them all over the place; often quite cheap, in fact. The consecrated host, however, is the Body of Christ. This is a position attested to by Scripture (see especially the incidents described in John 6:32-71, the Last Supper of Luke 22:7-20, and Paul’s statements in 1 Corinthians 10 and 11), the Early Fathers, and the unbroken Tradition of the Church. St. Ambrose of Milan’s formulation of the issue is particularly appropriate for the current situation, and can be read here (scroll down to Ch. 9).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says (in part):

1324: The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented towards it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ Himself, our Pasch.”

1325: “The Eucharist is the efficacious sign and sublime cause of that communion in the divine life and that unity of the People of God by which the Church is kept in being. It is the culmination both of God’s action sanctifying the world in Christ and of the worship men ofer to Christ and through him to the Father in the Holy Spirit.”

1326: Finally, by the Eucharistic celebration we already unite ourselves with the heavenly liturgy and anticipate eternal life, when God will be all in all.

CCC 1333-44 describe the institution of the Eucharist, with a natural focus on the bread and the wine as such. This would be well worth reading (start here). Most crucially, though, in this case, we have CCC 1413:

By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity.

This is what Catholics believe. Keep this in mind.

Responses to Items of Note

1. Webster Cook at the Mass

This situation seems to have been badly handled by all involved.

Cook’s first claimed intention was to show the consecrated host to his non-Catholic friend, who did not go up to receive communion, as is right and proper. If this was indeed his intention (which does not seem likely, given his later actions), there are far more prudent ways in which Cook could have gone about this. Had he approached the presiding priest and simply asked if his friend could see the Eucharist at some other time, and ask questions about it (if he had any), the whole affair might have ended without incident. Indeed, any Catholic worthy of the name would be delighted to assist with such a thing, if the request were sincere.

But instead he performed acts of subterfuge. Trying to just walk away with it in the first place was an inappropriate action, under the circumstances, and subsequently pretending to eat it only to spit it out again once he returned to his pew only made things worse. That said, the response of those at the mass to his actions was not in any way conducive to resolving the issue. I do not for a moment believe that he was “physically assaulted” by the usher or anyone while there (our modern culture sometimes seems to think that physical assault is synonymous with touching, in any event), but there seems to be no question that he was restrained against his will and in defiance of repeated requests to be released. That is not to be counseled. I will not say that such a response would always be out of place during mass, for it would depend entirely upon what was transpiring, but in the case of Webster Cook it is clear that cooler heads did not prevail when they otherwise might have.

UPDATE (Tuesday, noon): An account from an eyewitness casts some doubt on the roughness of the treatment Cook actually received. So far there have been no on-the-ground accounts of this incident except as filtered through Cook’s own perspective, so this is a worthwhile addition indeed.

The following account is provided by “Quasius,” a correspondent who was at the mass in question and who was witness to Cook’s departure from the premises. He wishes to stress both that officials have asked that names and extravagant details not be publicized while investigations continue, and also that he was not himself a firsthand witness to the initial altercation that started all of this. He did see Cook arguing with an associate campus minister and then leaving with the host, but his account of the “assault” itself is second-hand information from people whose reports he trusts.

Sunday before last at Catholic Campus Ministry mass, two guys came in and generally made a nuisance of themselves during mass. They had apparently come to cause trouble. Then after receiving the consecrated Eucharist, they didn’t consume Jesus. When confronted, they started calling it assault.

After Mass, our associate campus minister cornered them to talk to them. I was actually standing outside the hall and strongly considering tackling them if they bolted. Eventually the campus minister decided to let them go.

So then, holding the Eucharist hostage, he (apparently a student senator) went on a week-long attention whoring campaign talking about how he didn’t think student activity funds should go to CCM or any other religious groups on campus and talking about how he was viciously attacked by a girl half his weight.

He gave Jesus back in a plastic bag sometime before Mass last Sunday. Apparently the peer-pressure was getting to him. He got a ton of emails and someone threatened to break into his dorm to recover the Eucharist. He apparently wasn’t getting much popularity from the move either as a student gov representative.

This last Sunday there were local media crews at Mass as well as armed UCF guards.

The local on-line coverage is here and here. I’ve heard there are you tube videos of the TV coverage where he’s talking about “use of force” to recover the Eucharist. The ironic thing is that our associate campus minister is strong, well-built, and works out. He could have taken the punk out in a few seconds if he wanted to. The only “force” was a girl grabbing his arm.

I (and a lot of other people) were pretty pissed. I’m not sure what (if any) the rest of the fallout from this will be, but I’m most thankful that the Eucharist was recovered.

Thanks again to Quasius for his permission to post this, and for contributing in the comment thread below.

Anyway, a troubling element in all of this is that Webster Cook was at least in theory catechized at some point. To put it more bluntly: he ought to know better.

2. Webster Cook’s Response to All This

In some ways it has seemed somewhat conciliatory; in others, not so much at all.

At first he really did declare his intention to functionally “hold the Eucharist hostage,” as you can read here:

Their initiation of physical force was inappropriate and unnecessary in this situation. It is also the reason I did not eventually consume the holy wafer. I will keep the holy wafer until I receive a sufficient apology and a meeting with the bishop to discuss the Catholic Church’s policies.

This is not something just invented by Bill Donohue to exacerbate the situation, as Prof. Myers has contended; Cook actually said this.

Still, after receiving e-mails from (presumably quite calm) members of the Catholic community, Cook then returned the host, saying this:

I still want the community to understand that the use physical force is wrong, especially when based on assumptions. However, I feel it is unnecessary to cause pain for those who are not at fault in this situation.

I want to thank the individuals who explained the emotional and spiritual pain my possession of the Eucharist caused them to experience. They have demonstrated that the use of reason is more effective than the use of force.

Not bad at all. But then the other shoe dropped.

Cook is still pursuing his “case” against Catholic Campus Ministries, and the means he is employing to do so are troubling. Cook has taken the unusual and (in my opinion) deplorably stupid position that the CCM has violated a rule put in place to prevent certain fraternity hazing rituals, alleging that their insistence that he either consume the host or return it violates rules against forced feeding. It gets worse:

Cook also filed charges accusing the Catholic club of violating the school’s underage alcohol policy by serving communal wine to underage students.

In response to those who might suggest that Cook is in no way guilty of “being a dick” about all of this, I give you exhibits A and B. We can add to that the classy move of stuffing the host in his mouth and then spitting it out again later.

Another troubling aspect of this more recent article is that he seems to have changed his story about how and why he returned the host. Whereas before it was apparently due to him simply changing his mind about it after e-mails from reasonable people, he now maintains that

he decided to return the Eucharist after receiving threats against his life, and afterlife, from angry Catholics. [He] maintains he did nothing wrong, and still deserves an apology for being “attacked” during Mass.

What’s more:

Cook also denied he apologized for his actions, as UCF officials claimed he did in a statement.

This may seem baffling at first, but it is certainly true. His statements here, upon a closer reading, are of that marvelous sort that manage to ooze contrition without actually admitting of any guilt.

3. Bill Donohue’s Response to Webster Cook

It’s one thing for the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights to challenge government and media biases or infringements upon the dignity and/or liberty of Catholics, but it’s quite another for it to issue press releases condemning and calling for punitive action against private citizens. In Webster Cook’s case this line is, I will grant, somewhat blurred by the fact that he is also a member of UCF’s student government.

Nevertheless, it remains entirely improper for Bill Donohue to call for Webster Cook’s expulsion from a secular academy for an issue of religious offense. This matter is between Cook and God, and those immediately involved; if we are to extend the matter further, the diocese of Orlando might have something to say about it (I’ve read that there may be a case for Cook having excommunicated himself through his actions), but it does not reach up to the national or international level. Graver and more numerous insults are done to the Eucharist every week in countless parishes across the continent by those intent on partaking of It in a state of obstinate sin, and it is unlikely that the imprudent foolishness of some guy nobody ever heard of (until your press release, Mr. Donohue) would serve as a catalyst for anything worse.

Just as troubling is Donohue’s typically overwrought declaration that Cook’s actions are “beyond hate speech.” They are not, for one; and if they were, this is not a line of argument that could fruitfully be pursued in any case. “Hate crime” laws are troubling and imperfect, at present, and possibly by definition. We would not do well to support them. In a similar manner, though it might be tempting to file frivolous lawsuits to get back at enemies, or (as in Canada) file nuisance grievance reports with your local Human Rights Commission, the legitimacy that such outlets gain by their being employed by those who would otherwise rightly criticize them is too great a price for any short-term gains accrued in the execution.

I am not arguing that the mere political climate in North America should trump the defence of the Eucharist, but rather that we must be cautious not to tie up that defence with the laws of Caesar when we can otherwise avoid it, and in this case we most assuredly can.

4. The Defence of the Eucharist

Turning again to the Catechism, we read (CCC 2120):

Sacrilege consists in profaning or treating unworthily the sacraments and other liturgical actions, as well as persons, things, or places consecrated to God. Sacrilege is a grave sin especially when committed against the Eucharist, for in this sacrament the true Body of Christ is made substantially present for us.

The question that must be answered in the case of Webster Cook is whether or not what he did constitutes sacrilege in this sense. He has certainly reduced it to an instrument in some larger tiff he has with the CCM and groups like it, and taking it in the manner he did was not appropriate at all. That said, if it does qualify as sacrilege (and the case for that is strong), well, it’s bad news indeed for him. The Code of Canon law does not mince words:

Can. 1367 A person who throws away the consecrated species or takes or retains them for a sacrilegious purpose incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; moreover, a cleric can be punished with another penalty, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state.

Ouch.

UPDATE: Geoff, in the comments, notes:

…incurring a latae sententiae excommunication is not as easy to do as one might think. In particular, he would have had to be aware that there is a canonical penalty of some sort attached to what he did, which I think is not terribly likely.

This is an important point, and certainly worth making.

For our own parts, our responsibility when it comes to defending the Eucharist from harm is clear. All reasonable means must be taken to ensure that such offenses do not occur, but shooting first and asking questions later, so to speak, as those in the Mass at UCF seem to have done, is not effective. Begin with reason and work your way up as circumstances dictate.

That said, there are precedents for more extraordinary defences. St. Tarcisius, for example, gave his life rather than allow a mob to descrate the host he was carrying. Abp. Oscar Romero lost his life while in the act of elevating the host. But then, that having been said, Webster Cook was not offering a chance for martyrdom, here, and even if he were great care would have to be exercised. If we wish to see a good example of the rush to protect the Body of Christ from harm, we need look no further than the arrest of Jesus in the garden of Gesthemane and Peter’s attempted defence of his Lord. Take that as your model, however viscerally unsatisfying it may be. His is the cup, and He must drink of it; in the Eucharist God makes Himself vulnerable that we might partake of Him, and that vulnerability has implications now just as it did twenty centuries ago.

I would welcome input from others on this issue, as what I’ve written here is in the main a matter of opinion and could very well be wrong. I’ve searched the Catechism and the Code of Canon Law for recommendations concerning the physical defence of the host from abuse, but no real guidelines have presented themselves.

5. Prof. P.Z. Myers and the “Desecration Challenge”

Prof. Myers has thrown an interesting and alarming new wrench into what was already a convoluted affair.

He wants his readers to obtain the hosts for him. To do this they must commit similar acts of purloining and subterfuge to that perpetrated by Webster Cook, but in this case with far graver purpose. Does it constitute theft, though? It is true that the Church “gives the hosts away,” in a sense, but there are conditions to this. Prof. Myers’ readers would by necessity have to obtain the hosts under false pretenses, which is one thing, and in clear violation of the conditions set by the Church vis-a-vis the contract entered into by those presenting themselves for communion. In other words, “some restrictions apply,” and you should consult your nearest Catechism for details. In no sense could any of Prof. Myers’ atheistic readers obtain a host for him without breaking such rules and thus voiding their “right” to obtain the host being offered, and his Catholic readers (if he has any) would most definitely find themselves under the same latae sententiae excommunication that potentially looms over Webster Cook if they were to take consecrated hosts for the purposes of later desecration.

The question of “theft,” then, seems quite clear: what is being offered is only offered under certain conditions which are impossible for anyone involved in these shenanigans to meet, and the right of the Church to distribute her property as she sees fit is in such circumstances being infringed.

While it is troubling on a Christian level that Prof. Myers should seem so determined to commit such acts against that which we hold so dear, on a merely intellectual level it is batshit insane. Prof. Myers places great stock in his atheism, and his initial writing on this issue confirms that his opinion of the host can be summarized thus: “it’s a frakking cracker” (here I use the correct spelling of “frak;” sorry, Professor, but your Battlestar powers are weak; UPDATE: But then, I had been spelling his name wrong the whole time – an extra “e” – so I’ve hardly got grounds to complain). He sees no hint of divine significance to the thing. No power. No importance. Thus, and so very understandably, if that is true, his outrage.

The trouble with this is that it’s entirely incomprehensible when once we consider how he’s reacted to this. It is not the act of a mind convinced that something is entirely unimportant to take special efforts to track it down and destroy it in creative ways, thereafter posting pictures and video of the destruction for the entertainment of hundreds of other people who, similarly, believe that the thing being destroyed has no importance whatsoever. The childish thrill he seems to get from announcing such actions and the even more evident joy he takes in prolonging this debacle do not redound to the credit of a rationalist and a humanist.

For indeed, in what way may we reconcile a desire to insult and frustrate a great mass of people – many of whom one has never met, nor ever shall, and who have done no one an ounce of harm – with either rationalism or humanism? How is it an effective use of time and resources in the first case, or the humane and reasonable action in the second? In what way are goadings of this sort in the spirit of the “bright”ness he so ardently claims to espouse? Has he died to the polemicist within him? Has the grumbler died to the grumble? Such things have happened before.

The only answer that I can see to why he has pursued this plan of desecration is that, in spite of his feigned incredulity, he really does understand the difference between a consecrated host and a regular “cracker.” I doubt very much that he believes that the host really is in any sense God (though it is certainly difficult to effectively blaspheme something that isn’t), but he at least understands that Catholics believe this, and therein lies his rationale, which really is just to be crude and insulting to Catholics as a group, or even as individuals if and when the possibility might present itself.

That, then, is the thing. For any atheists reading this, what you should take away from it is not that we as Catholics expect you to believe that the consecrated host really is the Body of Christ (though of course it is), but rather, at least, to accept that we believe that. That’s the first requirement for you, or for Webster Cook, or for Prof. Myers or anyone in situations like this if you’re to actually respond with maturity. Aristotle famously declared that the mark of an educated and reasonable mind is the ability to entertain an idea without necessarily accepting it, and that’s really the minimum we’re asking of you, here. In doing so, you might be able to overcome the “social autism” that Ransom mentions in the comments on the last post and understand that even if in your view the God is not real, the people certainly are.

At any rate, a further note is necessary on a later development. Prof. Myers has discovered that a great many of the seemingly raging, intolerant and hateful “Catholics” posting comments on his posts are really just one person writing under different names. He somehow manages to spin this into greater evidence of the deceit and bigotry of Catholics everywhere, but it should rather be asked, I think, just why we should think that the posts are coming from a Catholic at all.

As it happens, anyway, I should mention that Prof. Myers gets one thing right, though I naturally take issue with his use of the word “real” near the bottom:

Wait, what? Holding a cracker hostage is now a hate crime? The murder of Matthew Shephard was a hate crime. The murder of James Byrd Jr. was a hate crime. This is a goddamned cracker. Can you possibly diminish the abuse of real human beings any further?

Take note, Bill Donohue. What Webster Cook has done was foolish and possibly sacrilege, but to call it a hate crime is to surrender to the sort of stupefying hyperbole that has so poisoned our modern discourse in the first place.

Concluding Remarks

Let’s sum the whole business up:

1. What Webster Cook did qualifies neither as an innocent mistake nor a canonically insigificant act; indeed, there is much to suggest that he has excommunicated himself through an act of sacrilege. That having been said, however, appeals to the secular arm of the law in this case are quite unnecessary, and academic punishments should not be pursued. A qualified apology from those who grabbed him is necessary, and a meeting between Cook and someone at the diocese might also be worthwhile.

2. While he is free to pursue his complaints against those who physically restrained him, he should drop his insane food-and-drink-based charges against CCM.

3. Death threats addressed to Webster Cook, or Prof. Myers, or indeed to anyone are both ill-advised and gravely wrong. They are to be condemned entirely. I certainly condemn them.

4. Prof. Myers should cease his crude vendetta against the Eucharist. If he were truly unaware of the difference between the consecrated host and another “cracker” of comparable size he would not have any reason to do what he’s doing, and since he clearly is aware of that difference what he is doing is grossly inappropriate for a professor in any field and incompatible with the virtues of rational humanism anyway. While the protection of the secular law in the case of Prof. Myers’ proposed theft of consecrated hosts would be more appropriate than in the case of Webster Cook, it would be highly difficult to prevent him and his readers from doing it, or prosecute them once it was done, and as such we may only hope that the professor’s sense of honor and rationality will prevent him from transgressing against the Church’s property rights as outlined so far above.

5. Bill Donohue of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights does not represent Catholicism except insofar as he, as a Catholic, is a witness to the faith. His pronouncements are entirely non-binding and may safely be ignored. The good work that the League can (and does) do is often overshadowed by its own shrill press releases, and an approach less rash and more reasoned would in future be most appreciated.

6. The defence of the Eucharist from abuse and sacrilege is indeed the duty of every Catholic, but all efforts must be taken to ensure that any blood spilled in this defence is first and foremost our own.

60 Responses to “Prof. Myers, Webster Cook, and the Eucharist”

  1. Tim J said

    Masterful summation. Grazie.

  2. Jeff said

    Your conclusions here, Nick, are (as usual) excellent. This unfortunate case highlights for me the unbridgeable ontological gaps that exist between Christian and secular worldviews. In many ways, I wonder if the root problem in this situation is related to the root problem of the Morgentaler debate you posted about earlier. In both cases, the secular perspective’s refusal to admit certain premises (i.e. on the one hand, the possibility of the divine presence intersecting with the material world in the form of the host; and, on the other hand, the sacred significance of human life in all stages of its development) makes these kinds of conversations nearly impossible. Without assenting to these premises (and others), the secular perspective will rationally arrive at the conclusion that the actions of those who hold these views are themselves irrational. (Of course, this does not explain Prof. Meyers’s truly bizarre hostility.) In light of the likely impossibility of these conversations, therefore, I think the approach you’ve taken is best: to determine what our responsibilities are to those who “do not know what they do”?

    As a member of one of the “ecclessial communities” outside the Catholic Church proper, but within the sotoreological reality of faith in Christ, I recognize that I can only partially understand the justifiable anger that Cook’s actions have provoked. That said, I think Christ’s own appeals to some kind of non-resistance (such as in Matthew 5, where Christ tells us not to resist an evil person) ought at least to give us reason to pause and consider how to love in the face of such profound hatred, which is one of the things that I think you have done so well here.

  3. Nick Milne said

    Thanks Tim; always a pleasure to hear from you!

    And Jeff, thanks very much as well. Other Christian perspectives on this issue are quite important because the differing understandings of the Eucharist are one of the things at the heart of our own divisions, as you rightly note. It is for this reason (among others) that I’ve so appreciated the approach of What’s Wrong With the World, where many non-Catholics are commenting on this issue as well.

    I’m planning a future post on the problem of first principles and how to have a fruitful debate when they differ as radically as they do in situations like the current one, so be sure to keep an eye out for it.

    Also, a response to your FB message is forthcoming; the site is down for me, at the moment, so in lieu of a more detailed response there I’ll just say “yes, that all sounds great,” here. Further details as I become able to provide them.

  4. Ransom said

    There’s a fairly interesting thread on this in the L&D forum of GG; apparently quasius was actually there when the skulduggery went down.

    Small world.

  5. Am I supposed to read all of that?!

    Tomorrow, mi amico, tomorrow.

  6. Nick Milne said

    Thanks for the lead, Ransom. I’m checking it out now.

    Brian: At your leisure, sir; at your leisure.

  7. Geoff said

    indeed, there is much to suggest that he has excommunicated himself through an act of sacrilege.

    Just a note on this–incurring a latae sententiae excommunication is not as easy to do as one might think. In particular, he would have had to be aware that there is a canonical penalty of some sort attached to what he did, which I think is not terribly likely.

  8. Christopher Milton said

    Firstly:
    Wonderful post, so much in the spirit of the Church Fathers.

    Secondly:

    How very interesting…. I’m sure there’s a well reasoned way around such things, but, if not and simply “to entertain an idea without necessarily accepting it,” I, wafer-worshipper that I am, would joyful take such a blow.

  9. Christopher Milton said

    My previous post should have included this as a quote:

    “I won’t be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker)…”

  10. Pedro said

    I found it troubling that in general you do not recommend the use of physical force to protect the Eucharist. Traditionally the Church has always taken great care to protect even the smallest particles of the Body of Christ, and people have died doing that; I just can’t picture a situation in which a group of male Catholics stands doing nothing while someone tries to steal the holy Host. It is obvious that a proportionate ammount of physical force would be necessary to recover It. In true justice nobody is ever obliged to given an apology for doing what is right. (And if the guy complains… man, he was trying to steal the Eucharist!)

  11. Nick Milne said

    Geoff– That’s an important clarification; I’ll make a note to that effect at once. Thank you.

    Christopher– Thanks for the kind words! I’d hesitate about being placed in that company, though; I’d hate to turn out to be a Tertullian rather than an Irenaeus. As far as your quoted passage goes, yes, taking such a hit would be a small price to pay to forestall such sacrilege. It’s a shame Prof. Meyers isn’t seriously offering that as an alternative, actually… the number of volunteers he would get to receive the boot would probably horrify him. We’d never hear the end of it, of course, but at least then he’d be targetting us again instead of the Eucharist.

    Pedro– I agree that this is something that’s lacking from this reflection, but in all honesty I’m unable to find any actual sanction for the use of such force. We may certainly resist with every fiber of our being, as St. Tarcisius did, even unto death, but once the host is out of our hands, as it were, what, then, must be done? Punch him in the face? What if that’s not enough? Break his arm? Cut his hand off and retrieve the host therefrom? I am not suggesting for a second that you counsel such actions, please understand, nor am I trying to paint you (or anyone) as some sort of bloodthirsty soul. When it comes to such affairs as this, though, I can only reflect that while we are indeed called to be Christ-like – Christ, who knocked over tables and defied villains – we are also called to follow His directives. The most applicable examples in this case rather run counter to our impulse towards the use of force in His defence, unfortunately; Peter must put up his sword, and when the Lord “broke Himself for bread,” as Chesterton once put it, His cry was not “come on, guys, bust some heads for me here,” but rather, “forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.”

    That said, I do agree that it should have been made Very Clear to Mr. Cook that he wouldn’t be leaving that mass until the host was returned. There are plenty of non-head-busting ways to keep him there, though.

  12. quasius said

    Pedro,

    Please do not try to second-guess what was or wasn’t done regarding use of physical force in this case. There were other things to consider here which I won’t go into. I will only say the people involved were quite upset at the theft and took it very seriously. In fact, I can say with no doubt, there were people there who would have died to protect the Eucharist from desecration. But that was not really the option that was being presented.
    I’ve been somewhat disheartened reading various posts across the Internet about what CCM and its members should or should not have done by people who weren’t there. CCM is not a “liberal campus ministry” that doesn’t respect the Eucharist. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. You’ll have trouble finding a much more dedicated, orthodox, Eucharist-centered campus ministry/parish.

  13. Pedro said

    Nick,
    the reason why our Lord didn’t want a physical confrontation is clear: “how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?” (Mt. 26, 54) It was the time that He, in obedience to the Father, was to be sacrificed: “When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness”. He Himself used physical violence in defense of what was most sacred in Israel: the Temple of the Lord.

    I don’t think punching him in the face would be necessary, but you have to understand that you can’t reason with people who are willing to steal the Eucharist. You can’t debate over it. You simply take the Eucharist from them and show them the door (and for that, you don’t need to punch him in the face. Have a couple of men retain him, search for the Host, take it back – even if the laws of the place would consider that ‘assault’: we obey God before men). Doing otherwise would amount to tacit consent with the sacrilege. Out of faith in the Real Presence, Catholics can’t let these things happen; we’re Christians, not pacifists. We do believe that force is licit in many circumstances in which its use is necessary to protect a greater good, and there’s no greater good that the Source of good Himself.

    Quasius, I wasn’t really questioning neither the orthodoxy of the people in CCM nor the particulars of the case, just the general assumption that we can’t use physical force.

  14. Nick Milne said

    That’s a fair and reasonable argument, Pedro, and I’ll have to give it some thought. Please be assured that I don’t mean this in the vaguely-dismissive “yeah I’ll think it over buddy” way that it may sound; I simply don’t know the truth about this at present and any opinion I might currently express should only be taken as provisional.

    Thanks for making the case. Do you happen to know of any documents that address such matters? An encyclical, for preference, but anything at all would be useful.

  15. wondering said

    Great summary of a confusing set of events (though you omitted the request for increased security at the GOP convention http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1460 ). I agree with your conclusions.

    I have a sincere question that I hope can be asked without causing offense (and please accept my apologies if I do offend–I truly do not mean to). When the wafer becomes Christ, does that mean that Jesus is trapped there? I have been assuming that offense comes from the disrespect to a holy item, not from worry about what will happen to Jesus, because God can take care of Himself. But reading this makes me think I must have been wrong, or no one would be discussing the need to protect the Eucharist.

    Is it that Jesus chooses to remain in the wafer no matter what happens to it? i.e., not trapped, but still vulnerable?

  16. Nick Milne said

    Hello Wondering,

    Thanks for the tip about the GOP convention. I had glossed over that particular facet of the press release because I thought it was too incredible to be real, but if it is I’ll have to make a note of it somewhere.

    As for your question, I’ve attempted to answer it in a post. You can find it here. My answer may prove unsatisfactory (from your end as well as mine), so be sure to check back in case corrections or less clumsy explanations are offered by readers more learned in these matters.

  17. I was reading the Summa Theologica, Third Part, The Holy Eucharist, Questions 73-83 and I thought their readings may help.

    Link:http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4.htm

    Specifically: Question 76, thje way in which Christ is in this sacrament.

    Article 6. Whether Christ’s body is in this sacrament movably?

    Objection 1. It seems that Christ’s body is movably in this sacrament, because the Philosopher says (Topic. ii) that “when we are moved, the things within us are moved”: and this is true even of the soul’s spiritual substance. “But Christ is in this sacrament,” as shown above (74, 1). Therefore He is moved when it is moved.

    Objection 2. Further, the truth ought to correspond with the figure. But, according to the commandment (Exodus 12:10), concerning the Paschal Lamb, a figure of this sacrament, “there remained nothing until the morning.” Neither, therefore, if this sacrament be reserved until morning, will Christ’s body be there; and so it is not immovably in this sacrament.

    Objection 3. Further, if Christ’s body were to remain under this sacrament even until the morrow, for the same reason it will remain there during all coming time; for it cannot be said that it ceases to be there when the species pass, because the existence of Christ’s body is not dependent on those species. Yet Christ does not remain in this sacrament for all coming time. It seems, then, that straightway on the morrow, or after a short time, He ceases to be under this sacrament. And so it seems that Christ is in this sacrament movably.

    On the contrary, it is impossible for the same thing to be in motion and at rest, else contradictories would be verified of the same subject. But Christ’s body is at rest in heaven. Therefore it is not movably in this sacrament.

    I answer that, When any thing is one, as to subject, and manifold in being, there is nothing to hinder it from being moved in one respect, and yet to remain at rest in another just as it is one thing for a body to be white, and another thing, to be large; hence it can be moved as to its whiteness, and yet continue unmoved as to its magnitude. But in Christ, being in Himself and being under the sacrament are not the same thing, because when we say that He is under this sacrament, we express a kind of relationship to this sacrament. According to this being, then, Christ is not moved locally of Himself, but only accidentally, because Christ is not in this sacrament as in a place, as stated above (Article 5). But what is not in a place, is not moved of itself locally, but only according to the motion of the subject in which it is.

    In the same way neither is it moved of itself according to the being which it has in this sacrament, by any other change whatever, as for instance, that it ceases to be under this sacrament: because whatever possesses unfailing existence of itself, cannot be the principle of failing; but when something else fails, then it ceases to be in it; just as God, Whose existence is unfailing and immortal, ceases to be in some corruptible creature because such corruptible creature ceases to exist. And in this way, since Christ has unfailing and incorruptible being, He ceases to be under this sacrament, not because He ceases to be, nor yet by local movement of His own, as is clear from what has been said, but only by the fact that the sacramental species cease to exist.

    Hence it is clear that Christ, strictly speaking is immovably in this sacrament.

    Reply to Objection 1. This argument deals with accidental movement, whereby things within us are moved together with us. But with things which can of themselves be in a place, like bodies, it is otherwise than with things which cannot of themselves be in a place, such as forms and spiritual substances. And to this mode can be reduced what we say of Christ, being moved accidentally, according to the existence which He has in this sacrament, in which He is not present as in a place.

    Reply to Objection 2. It was this argument which seems to have convinced those who held that Christ’s body does not remain under this sacrament if it be reserved until the morrow. It is against these that Cyril says (Ep. lxxxiii): “Some are so foolish as to say that the mystical blessing departs from the sacrament, if any of its fragments remain until the next day: for Christ’s consecrated body is not changed, and the power of the blessing, and the life-giving grace is perpetually in it.” Thus are all other consecrations irremovable so long as the consecrated things endure; on which account they are not repeated. And although the truth corresponds with the figure, still the figure cannot equal it.

    Reply to Objection 3. The body of Christ remains in this sacrament not only until the morrow, but also in the future, so long as the sacramental species remain: and when they cease, Christ’s body ceases to be under them, not because it depends on them, but because the relationship of Christ’s body to those species is taken away, in the same way as God ceases to be the Lord of a creature which ceases to exist.

    …it’s all good reading.

    thanks for the posts.

    WCC +<

  18. samantha robles said

    Wow. I am a student at Cal State Fullerton, and I sporadically attend Mass on campus through the Newman club. I will pass this message on to Newman club officials. Thanks for the post.

  19. SDG said

    Thanks for this helpful analysis. Incidentally, your jibe at Myers over his misspelling of “frakking” might be more cutting if you hadn’t misspelled his name more frequently than not. :)

    P.S. WWC is correct. Because the manner of the Real Presence is not local, distributive or extended in space, he is not “vulnerable” in any real sense. Desecration harms the soul of the desecrator and the sensibilities of pious witnesses, not Jesus.

  20. Nick Milne said

    Well, that’s a heck of a thing. Don’t even credit me with getting it right some of the time, please; I honestly thought it was “Meyers” so any time it was spelled correctly was done by accident.

    Anyway, I think I’ve fixed that error. I’ll go get the other posts now. Why were you the first to notice, I wonder?

    And thanks for the clarification on the “vulnerability” of the host.

  21. [...] a a great round-up at The Daily [...]

  22. TomJoe said

    Just a note on this–incurring a latae sententiae excommunication is not as easy to do as one might think. In particular, he would have had to be aware that there is a canonical penalty of some sort attached to what he did, which I think is not terribly likely.

    Hmm, I thought a latae sententiae excommunication occured simply by performance of the act by reasonable individuals.

    Relevant Canon Law section

    Canon 1321.3 – When an external violation has occurred, imputability is presumed unless it is otherwise apparent.

    Canon 1322 – Those who habitually lack the use of reason are considered to be incapable of a delict, even if they violated a law or precept while seemingly sane.

    Canon 1323 – The following are not subject to a penalty when they have violated a law or precept:

    1/ a person who has not yet completed the sixteenth year of age;

    2/ a person who without negligence was ignorant that he or she violated a law or precept; inadvertence and error are equivalent to ignorance;

    3/ a person who acted due to physical force or a chance occurrence which the person could not foresee or, if foreseen, avoid;

    4/ a person who acted coerced by grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or due to necessity or grave inconvenience unless the act is intrinsically evil or tends to the harm of souls;

    5/ a person who acted with due moderation against an unjust aggressor for the sake of legitimate self defense or defense of another;

    6/ a person who lacked the use of reason, without prejudice to the prescripts of cann. ⇒ 1324, §1, n. 2 and ⇒ 1325;

    7/ a person who without negligence thought that one of the circumstances mentioned in nn. 4 or 5 was present.

    I believe the case can be made that currently, Webster Cook is not a Catholic in full communion with the Church. If he ever was.

  23. Stjuuv said

    This is a rather civilized analysis of the situation from a Catholic point of view, I must say. But there still were a few parts of your text that I find myself in disagreement with. Most importantly:

    The only answer that I can see to why he has pursued this plan of desecration is that, in spite of his feigned incredulity, he really does understand the difference between a consecrated host and a regular “cracker.” I doubt very much that he believes that the host really is in any sense God (though it is certainly difficult to effectively blaspheme something that isn’t), but he at least understands that Catholics believe this, and therein lies his rationale, which really is just to be crude and insulting to Catholics as a group, or even as individuals if and when the possibility might present itself.

    Have you at all considered that the professors motives are not to entertain atheists or to insult catholics, but to show to everyone involved, most importantly catholics, that the “consecrated host” is still a cracker, no matter what you believe. There is absolutely no way for anyone to distinguish it from an identical cracker, and if he were to ride a steamroller over a bagfull of crackers, the catholics would be enraged even if they were bought from a local cracker-store. That would be an excellent example of the ridiculousness of the belief that the crackers are in any way something more than they are.

  24. Kevin said

    Who, besides a complete pacifist, thinks we, or for that matter a Christian police officer, can’t use force to prevent the theft of property? Catholics have every right to throw a punch to defend the Eucharist.

  25. TomJoe said

    Stjuuv: Have you at all considered that the professors motives are not to entertain atheists or to insult catholics, but to show to everyone involved, most importantly catholics, that the “consecrated host” is still a cracker, no matter what you believe.

    Since Catholics consider the miracle of Transubstantiation to be one of faith, such an attempt is supremely stupid. We know it can’t be confirmed through science. Capische? Hence, it’s stupid to “use science” to disprove it. For Prof. Myers, it’s par for the course though.

  26. Stjuuv said

    I doubt that professor Myers intends to convince all the catholics with a single demonstration that their religion is irrational and foolish, but even if a single person thinks that: “hey, this really seems to be nothing more than a cracker,” then it was worth his trouble. With the amount of problems religion generates in the world, every small step has an effect.

  27. Ransom said

    “…and if he were to ride a steamroller over a bagfull of crackers, the catholics would be enraged even if they were bought from a local cracker-store.”

    Uhm, no. What part of “consecrated host” don’t you understand? The blessing is what makes it sacred, not the crackerness. No blessing -> no Eucharist -> no angry papists.

  28. Jay E. Adrian said

    I would like to see Myers do to a Koran what he claims to do to a host.

  29. S.Murphy said

    Jay E Adrian – all due respect, but I don’t think that trope, though it has an element of truth, does us any more credit than Myers & co’s constant sideswipes about pedophilia.

    I’ve seen the link to Myers’ defense of Muslim anger over th Mohammed cartoons; but evidently he has also made it clear here and there that he holds Islam in the same contempt as Christianity. The clumsier and cruder versions of “well, you don’t have the courage to desecrate a Koran” do start to sound like Catholics really wouldn’t mind, and might even think it was great, if Myers did desecrate a Koran.

  30. Stjuuv said

    Ransom said: Uhm, no. What part of “consecrated host” don’t you understand? The blessing is what makes it sacred, not the crackerness. No blessing -> no Eucharist -> no angry papists.
    I understand your religious practices well enough, but it seems that you are missing the point that there is no way for anyone to tell a difference between a regular cracker and a consecrated host, effectively making the thing you call “sacred” just a regular cracker in every single aspect. You wouldn’t be able to tell a difference between a consecrated host and a cracker even if you were given all the time in the world to inspect them in every way, and it would be even more impossible over an online video. I think its highly likely, that professor Myers will first post a video of horrible blasphemies conducted with different hosts sent to him, and then let the catholic rage go on for a few days collecting all the threats and idiotic statements from all types of catholic organizations and “peaceful” catholic people, before posting thorough documentation of the actual hosts sent to him, and how he used simple wafers in the video he posted, effectively making complete idiots out of every catholic taking word on the subject, and showing how religion is divisive, spreads hate, and calls out for crimes over something as trivial as a cracker.

  31. Stjuuv said

    About the “Why won’t you be mean to Islam, they deserve it, unlike us” comments here and over the internet:
    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/desecration_its_a_fun_hobby.php

  32. Ransom said

    Stjuuv: First off, I’m not a Catholic. I don’t actually believe in anything other than symbolic value in the bread/wine.

    I don’t see why anyone would take Meyers at his word either way. “Documentation of the actual hosts?” Didn’t you just say there’s no way to tell the difference? And how does it make idiots out of “taking words?” (Can words be idiots, or can trolls not do english reel gud?) The inability to distinguish a blessed wafer from an unblessed one through the medium of a webcam video hardly undermines the idea that it’s wrong to steal the blessed variety from a Mass.

    Also, I’m pretty sure that most people would consider Myers part and parcel of divisiveness, hate spreading, and calling for crime.

  33. I am late to the party!

    It’s getting difficult to tell what exactly happened due to Cook’s incident report and the conflicting report Quasius gave and the possible biases on either side.

    One thing I did come up with is if Cook knew what the reaction would be to his not eating the eucharist, why didn’t he tell his friend to just receive communion as well so they could avoid a commotion? If he knew taking it would be a problem yet did it anyway, I can’t imagine him having a problem with his friend accepting it under false pretenses instead. It would seem the only two possibilities are that he knew what he was doing and intended to cause a disturbance, or is telling the truth and was clueless as to the consequences.

    His incident report does claim “This incident was especially perturbing because I have previously observed members of my church do this without provoking this apparently default repercussion.”, which would provide some backing for the clueless theory.

    The food-and-drink charges do seem petty, and there are states that have exceptions for alcohol so that is just grasping at straws. I’m not sure how the CCM receiving student funds will affect their ability to deal with him in the Catholic setting or affect his incident report though.

    As far as the idea that he, or anyone doing what he did, is engaging in theft, I just don’t see how that concept has any substance. Unless there’s a federal or state law requiring you to immediately consume the cracker or a contract you have to sign stating the same, how exactly is someone committing a crime with a freely given cracker? Is it stealing to get a free sample at the supermarket and then pocket it? If the supermarket were giving away free communion wafers, is there anyone in the world who could tell the difference between a consecrated cracker and the supermarket cracker and determine which was the victim of a “crime”? If a non-Catholic consumed a consecrated cracker, would it be necessary to subdue him/her and induce vomiting to rescue Jesus?

    This is the problem PZ is trying to, perhaps a little over the top, trying to illustrate. Once you allow a person or group to assert claims without evidence and you respect those claims, you are hostage to pretty much anything they do in defense of those claims. That is what leads to incidents like Muslims rioting and killing over cartoons, or in this case, people like Quasius strongly considering tackling some “punks” because they might abscond with a cracker. Kevin and Pedro (we obey God before men) seem to believe that force is not only a possibility in defense of a cracker, but warranted! Because general society “respects” these claims Muslims and Catholics make, legitimately criticizing them and showing them to be ludicrous will just get you labeled things such as narrow minded, intolerant, prejudiced, and so on.

    While PZ may not be taking the most tactful and effective path to get his message across, there is nothing inherently insulting or disrespectful with his actions until you dignify the unsubstantiated claims of Catholics. I do think it would have been more effective if he had elucidated his reasons in doing this a bit more as it easy to see how they could be misinterpreted if you weren’t of the same frame of mind as he. Time to listen to his Heart of the Matter interview to see how well a job he does there!

  34. Stjuuv said

    Ransom said: “Documentation of the actual hosts?” Didn’t you just say there’s no way to tell the difference? And how does it make idiots out of “taking words?” (Can words be idiots, or can trolls not do english reel gud?) The inability to distinguish a blessed wafer from an unblessed one through the medium of a webcam video hardly undermines the idea that it’s wrong to steal the blessed variety from a Mass.

    Pay attention. I did say that it is impossible to tell the difference between a consecrated host and a cracker, making them effectively the same, but it is hardly impossible for professor Myers to film himself opening all the packages sent to him from his readers, and placing the wafers into a sealed container, and then using crackers bought from a random store in his desecration video. That way the crackers he desecrates cannot be consecrated, and the ones that were sent to him, out of which at least some are bound to be actually consecrated, are stored safely.
    Then when he posts the desecration video and catholics start to act like idiots, he can have proof that they are going out of their minds over regular crackers. The webcam video can hardly make determining the state of the crackers any more difficult, because it is obviously impossible even when you have the crackers physically present.
    About “taking words” – english is obviously not your first language, or at least you aren’t very good at it. Taking word, speaking up, talking on the subject of – make your pick at the expression you’d prefer me to use, it doesn’t make a difference.
    About “stealing” a cracker – it is also wrong to attack someone for something as trivial as a worthless piece of dough, not to mention the death threats. The two acts are completely from different leagues.

  35. blueshifter said

    Hello. I’m an atheist, a regular reader and ocasional commenter at Pharyngula. I just wanted to say that that I agree with you on this one, as do some others of my ilk. No offense, but i really do believe it’s just a cracker, with absolutely no supernatural attributes whatsoever. However, to you it’s the body of God – you are not kidding, you absolutely believe that. And that’s a beautiful thing, we currently live in a society where that belief affects me in no way whatsoever, so I see no reason to go out of my way to offend you. It won’t suddenly convince you that I’m correct and you are wrong. It would just be rude; pointless, cruel, and rude. Myers had some original point, to highlight how Donohue referring to eucharist desecration as “hate speech” was an exaggeration, and so he would up the ante by showing him some ‘real desecration’; but that’s just dumb. He should just make his case, that Donhoue exaggerated, that the eucharist isn’t the body of god because of x, y, and z – and leave it at that.

    now he’s saying he’s gonna desecrate a koran as well (at the behest of irate catholics). this is escalating way out of control. everybody needs to take a deep breath, and go back to arguing ideas with words.

  36. … go back to arguing ideas with words.

    Thanks, Blueshifter. I agree – freedom of speech is all we need in this case.

    What I really don’t get is what Myers expects to prove through actions rather than speech. As TomJoe pointed out, Catholics know that God’s presence in the Eucharist can’t be proven scientifically. We don’t expect anything to “happen” if Myers desecrates a host, or at least anything visible in this life. His own actions will have an effect on his own soul, but that’s something which we can’t measure.

    So, Stjuuv, any Catholic who is convinced by Myers’ actions that “hey, this really seems to be nothing more than a cracker” must have started out with some expectation of his own, not actually Catholic teaching.

    Think of it this way: a king disguises himself as a peasant in order to become closer to his subjects, and all his actions and words reflect only his assumed personality. However, he has told a bunch of his noblemen his plan beforehand, and they figure out who he is and treat him with dignity. Someone else comes along, sees the noblemen paying reverence to the king, and says, “That’s just a peasant – look,” and slaps him. The noblemen are enraged for the sake of their king, but the king himself continues to act just as a peasant would. As long as the noblemen have reasons to believe in the king’s identity, they aren’t going to lose faith simply because he continues to act in character. When he goes back to his throne, he will deal with those people in justice.

    God allows himself to be treated as bread. It’s what we expect.

  37. Oh yeah – and what I meant to point out in the analogy is that Blueshifter would want to sit down with everyone and talk about whether there is a king, and whether he is in disguise. A much better solution. Sorry for the long analogies, anyway – it’s just how I like to think.

  38. Stjuuv said

    So catholics are the noblemen, who magically figured out who the king really is, while all the other christians, not to mention all the other religions in the world are mistaken, although they provide exactly the same pseudo-reasoning to back their claims as you do?
    Myers isn’t slapping the king to piss off the noblemen, Myers is slapping the entire idea of your baseless analogy, right from its beginning.

  39. Actually, in the analogy, all people would be noblemen – non-personal beings (like bread) would be peasants. The noblemen who believe the king is disguised as a peasant would be Catholics.

    And really, we don’t “magically” know – we believe because of what he told us in advance. If Myers wants to argue, he should argue the historical and logical foundations of Catholicism. Simply showing us that, indeed, the Eucharist appears to be bread is no argument and doesn’t tell Catholics anything they don’t know.

  40. Stjuuv said

    This comment in Myers’ blog might be of interest to you, as it lays out some ideas of how professors actions can benefit the rational part of the society: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/rolls_eyes_its_a_cracker_peopl.php#comment-997242

  41. Robert said

    >Then after receiving the consecrated Eucharist, they didn’t consume Jesus

    I call fake. I’ve NEVER heard anyone but a mocking atheist call Communion with our Lord ‘consuming Jesus.’ Crude and vulgar.

  42. Chris Bell said

    Nice summary. A few points from a non-Catholic lawyer:

    our modern culture sometimes seems to think that physical assault is synonymous with touching

    Technically, it is. If you were to look up the legal definition, an unwanted touching is not just assault, but battery. It’s not a “modern” definition either. That has been the definition for centuries.

    He wants his readers to obtain the hosts for him. To do this they must commit similar acts of purloining and subterfuge to that perpetrated by Webster Cook, but in this case with far graver purpose. Does it constitute theft, though?

    No, it does not. Technically, the wafer is a gift. It is given on condition (”I will give this to you only if you eat it”) but once the gift is given it is the property of the recipient. They can choose to do as you asked, but they can choose not to. You can’t claim that it is “church property” while also claiming that the person has the right to EAT it!

    The PZ Myers affair:

    As an atheist, I admit I have divided feelings about the whole mess. (You probably know that PZ finally did desecrate the Eucharist, and did it in a “thoughtful” way that helped redeem his point of view a little.)

    You mentioned putting yourself if the shoes of a Catholic. Trust me, PZ and everyone else understands the sacredness of this to Catholics. But now try to stand in an atheist’s shoes.

    A priest takes a cracker, possibly manufactured by Nabisco, and speaks magic words over it. The followers now think that this wafer is now “holy”. People like Pedro (above) advocate the use of physical violence to safeguard the holy wafer.

    To a non-believer, this is batshit crazy. To take an everyday, non-unique object and claim that you will use physical force against those who defile it is … well, religion.

    The whole incident reminds me of the Muslim cartoons controversy. The cartoonists were being deliberately provocative (and PZ has definitely topped them) but the counter-reaction is so excessive that the rude actor begins to have a point.

  43. mark217 said

    I have a feeling that Roman Catholics will –soon– no longer be receiving communion in their hands, but only on the tongue (as it was received prior to Vatican II). I read recently that at all papal masses communion would be only on the tongue (is this accurate news?). I cannot understand why any person (a person of any belief or lack of belief) would want to deliberately cause offense, spiritual pain, or anguish to another human being by committing an obvious act of sacrilege, disrespect, offense, or desecration. I would retrieve a Koran or Bible from being desecrated, too (even if I got arrested for it — I accept those consequences). If this man disagrees with Roman Catholic practices he shouldn’t attend Mass. It’s that simple. If he disagrees with some aspect of university policy, taking a host from the church is counter-intuitive, unnecessarily provocative, and ineffective in terms of seeking redress of grievances. There was no reason for him to intrude in the Mass this way, to impose his religious beliefs or disbeliefs on others. I think he violated their religious freedom. It was wrong to intrude on religious rites to make some sort of protest. Freedom of religion, I believe, means that people should be able to practice their religion peacefully without harrassment and abuse. I am NOT Roman Catholic, but I would probably physically try to stop someone if I saw them taking the consecrated species from the church building for illicit, irreverent, or abusive purposes (because I respect the religious freedom and dignity of Roman Catholics and their beliefs and their right to practice their faith as my fellow citizens in a democracy). I do accept that my actions would be clearly illegal according to Florida law the minute I touched another person without their permission and consent, but I would be willingly be arrested for “assault and battery” for this action. Sometimes taking a stand for religious liberty is important, even if it means getting arrested. I would detain someone trying to remove a host from the church without violence. I certainly wouldn’t hit anyone (wouldn’t it be a form of desecration to physcially harm a person created in the image of God?), but I would physcially detain them until I retrieved the host and returned it to the priest and I am sure other people would assist me. This could be accomplished without threats and violence. This wasn’t hate speech, but it was very, very hateful (or a symptom of mental illnes). I think this guy should be expelled from university for violating religious freedom of other students. And the nutty professor seems to think that Catholic college students in Florida in 2008 are somehow morally and directly responsible for pogroms and bigotry of past centuries. This is misplacing blame and creating more religious antagonism in a world already divided (counter-intuitive, anti-intellectual, ineffective, unworthy of a thinking person…) In the USA we are so very polarized and have developed such contempt and spite for one another. This is very sad. I do wonder about the mental stability of the individual involved. And a person with post-graduate education (a professor) would, I think, be more emotionally mature and more respectful of the beliefs of other people. Doesn’t a professor have more positive things to do than try to antagonize Roman Catholics?

  44. mark217 said

    I have a feeling that Roman Catholics will –soon– no longer be receiving communion in their hands, but only on the tongue (as it was received prior to Vatican II). I read recently that at all papal masses communion would be only on the tongue (is this accurate news?). I cannot understand why any person (a person of any belief or lack of belief) would want to deliberately cause offense, spiritual pain, or anguish to another human being by committing an obvious act of sacrilege, disrespect, offense, or desecration. I would retrieve a Koran or Bible from being desecrated, too (even if I got arrested for it — I accept those consequences). If this man disagrees with Roman Catholic practices he shouldn’t attend Mass. It’s that simple. If he disagrees with some aspect of university policy, taking a host from the church is counter-intuitive, unnecessarily provocative, and ineffective in terms of seeking redress of grievances. There was no reason for him to intrude in the Mass this way, to impose his religious beliefs or disbeliefs on others. I think he violated their religious freedom. It was wrong to intrude on religious rites to make some sort of protest. Freedom of religion, I believe, means that people should be able to practice their religion peacefully without harrassment and abuse. I am NOT Roman Catholic, but I would probably physically try to stop someone if I saw them taking the consecrated species from the church building for illicit, irreverent, or abusive purposes (because I respect the religious freedom and dignity of Roman Catholics and their beliefs and their right to practice their faith as my fellow citizens in a democracy). I do accept that my actions would be clearly illegal according to Florida law the minute I touched another person without their permission and consent, but I would be willingly be arrested for “assault and battery” for this action. Sometimes taking a stand for religious liberty is important, even if it means getting arrested. I would detain someone trying to remove a host from the church without violence. I certainly wouldn’t hit anyone (wouldn’t it be a form of desecration to physcially harm a person created in the image of God?), but I would physcially detain them until I retrieved the host and returned it to the priest and I am sure other people would assist me. This could be accomplished without threats and violence. This wasn’t hate speech, but it was very, very hateful (or a symptom of mental illnes). I think this guy should be expelled from university for violating religious freedom of other students. And the nutty professor seems to think that Catholic college students in Florida in 2008 are somehow morally and directly responsible for pogroms and bigotry of past centuries. This is misplacing blame and creating more religious antagonism in a world already divided (counter-intuitive, anti-intellectual, ineffective, unworthy of a thinking person…) In the USA we are so very polarized and have developed such contempt and spite for one another. This is very sad. I do wonder about the mental stability of the individual involved. And a person with post-graduate education (a professor) would, I think, be more emotionally mature and more respectful of the beliefs of other people. Doesn’t a professor have more positive things to do than try to antagonize Roman Catholics?

  45. SoMG said

    I go back and forth on the usefulness of desecrating the Eucharist. On the one hand, it alienates potential converts to non-religion. On the other hand, sometimes you can wake someone up with a shock.

    I think PZ did this because he is angry. Non-religious Americans, and scientific Americans, have very good reasons to be angry with organized Christianity. The ongoing effort to pollute science classes with a theory of the supernatural is at least as meaningful a desecration as sticking a nail in the Eucharist. (Governor Jindal is a disgrace to the Rhodes Scholarship and should be forced to pay back the money Rhodes Trust spent on his education.) The Catholic Church does not deny evolution but it (she) is responsible for using egregious abuses of science to promote bad laws and policies which are motivated by Catholic religious doctrine. For example see http://www.abortionbreastcancer.com/

    I can tell you for sure that if PZ loses his job (unlikely, he’s tenured) or is harmed in any way by any Catholic, even a loon like Jon Salvi (who shouted “This is what you get. You should pray the Rosary!” as he shot two young women to death, and later did a good deed by committing suicide in prison) I will desecrate the Eucharist every day for the rest of my life.

  46. Nick Milne said

    Just two quick notes:

    1. If your post doesn’t appear immediately, it’s likely because it contains a link and has been sent to me for approval. I don’t really like having to do this, naturally, but before I turned on this feature some of the spam that turned up was simply intolerable. I don’t know if WordPress tells you that this is what’s happening when it happens, but in case it doesn’t, there you go. I’ll also mention that I have no intention whatever of censoring or deleting posts unless they are obscene or illegal in some way. Opposing viewpoints thoughtfully offered are quite safe.

    2. I intend to respond to some of the more recent comments in short order, hopefully by Monday – particularly from Chris Bell and some of the other atheists posting (thanks for stopping by, one and all). As a recent post indicates, however, I’m sort of wrapped up in writing at the moment, so these things will have to wait.

  47. how professors actions can benefit the rational part of the society (Stjuuv)
    the usefulness of desecrating the Eucharist. (SoMG)

    From all that I have read, the benefits or usefulness of desecrating the Eucharist fall into three categories:

    1) It proves that P.Z. Myers really doesn’t believe the host is God.
    2) It proves that he can get away with sacrilege.
    3) It proves that Catholics can become angry when he commits or threatens sacrilege.

    I don’t think any of these are reason enough for his actions, however, even taking into account his secular viewpoint.

    1) Catholics know that non-believers exist. We don’t go around thinking “he says he doesn’t believe, but deep down he knows he does.” If he said he was an atheist, any ordinary Catholic would take him at his word alone. Actions are superfluous.
    2) Yes, he can desecrate the host and live a long and happy life. He can also shoplift, cheat on his wife, and take candy from a baby. Just because there are no [immediate] repercussions does not make an action ethically neutral; even less does it make it good. And, as I said before, Catholics shouldn’t be scandalized if nothing happens to him because of this. “The wicked spring up like grass, and all who do evil thrive.”
    3) Again, a simple question would be enough to prove this. Comboxes all over are filled with Catholics explaining what their reaction would be in such an instance. Heck, even non-Catholics are speaking up, like Mark217.

    I think SoMG is right in pointing out that it is more an act of angry revenge than a thoughtful attempt to prove something. Mark217 is also right in stating that Myers is misplacing blame.

    As for “polluting science classes with a theory of the supernatural,” I really don’t know what to say, except that Descartes and Pascal polluted their math with the same kind of thing. We’re talking two different levels of reality here – physical and metaphysical.

  48. Chris Bell said

    I intend to respond to some of the more recent comments in short order, hopefully by Monday – particularly from Chris Bell and some of the other atheists posting (thanks for stopping by, one and all)

    Pleased to read a calm, thoughtful discussion from another point of view. Take your time writing. I bookmarked the site, so I’ll try to stop back by later.

    Maid:

    I think your third reason is too passive. PZ also showed that desecrating the Eucharist will provoke fury from mainstream Catholics and quite a few death threats from the really intense crowd. (He’s received over 12,000 letters and about 100 death threats!) You also compared this to the fact that PZ could “shoplift, cheat on his wife, and take candy from a baby”. Two of those are crimes, so let me focus on cheating on his wife. Would you feel justified in using force to stop PZ from cheating on his wife? Mark might feel that way.

    I do accept that my actions would be clearly illegal according to Florida law the minute I touched another person without their permission and consent, but I would be willingly be arrested for “assault and battery” for this action. Sometimes taking a stand for religious liberty is important, even if it means getting arrested. I would detain someone trying to remove a host from the church without violence. I certainly wouldn’t hit anyone (wouldn’t it be a form of desecration to physcially[sic] harm a person created in the image of God?), but I would physcially[sic] detain them until I retrieved the host and returned it to the priest and I am sure other people would assist me.

    I’m sorry. I know what PZ did was offensive, but this is just not allowed, and that is the real point (in my humble opinion).

  49. Mr. Bell,

    The point I was trying to make was that the experiment was unnecessary: setting up a hypothetical situation would be enough to make his point, since most people are honest about how they would react in a hypothetical situation. Mark217 has done so, and simply stating what he thinks he would do is definitely “allowed.” Myers brought this hypothetical situation into reality by carrying out his threat. So far (and I pray it continues) no Catholics have followed his example by carrying out theirs.

    And speaking of carrying out threats, SoMG’s is really interesting. I can tell you for sure that if PZ loses his job (unlikely, he’s tenured) or is harmed in any way by any Catholic… I will desecrate the Eucharist every day for the rest of my life. That’s pretty intense for someone who believes that nothing is sacred. A lifelong commitment to a daily act of vengeance? Unless it’s hyperbole…

  50. watercat said

    If I should come to possess a consecrated host, I will treat it in the most disrespectful, sacrilegious manner possible. Since we viewed them as mere symbols, it seems trivial that we all desecrated dozens of them when I was an altar boy. However, if Catholics are right,and there really is a Jesus Christ, and he really does transform himself at the priest’s bidding, then he is there as an active participant in satisfying the priest’s desires during mass.

    He is also there as an active participant in satisfying the priest’s desires during what went on downstairs with that same priest. He was right there as an active participant in taking away my childhood and leaving me with nightmares for forty years. Instead of transforming those nightmares or preserving that child his only interest was in serving the child’s tormentor by transforming hosts. And he demands my respect!

    No. What he gets is the contempt he has earned through his own actions. His accomplices and enablers need have no fear that I will lower myself to his level by seeking out new victims to abuse, however if Jesus Christ is in some sense actually present in the host, if I came into possession of one the only appropriate action would be to desecrate and destroy it utterly in a cathartic healing experience and act of justice.

  51. Chris Bell said

    I posted this elsewhere, but I thought it was a good place to start when we do discuss this:

    I’ve been trying for days to come up with a good metaphor for the whole event. I really can’t, as there are too many distinguishing facts. Still, my best attempt is this….

    Imagine that you go to the world’s most famous steak restaurant. You have to be specially invited to this place; it’s a big freaking deal. The dinner consists of an elaborate ceremony that lasts for hours. If you see the chef, you should avoid eye contact out of respect.

    One uncouth diner participates in this event. When his steak comes out, he asks for steak sauce. The whole room gasps in unison. This is NOT to be done. The chef comes out of the kitchen just livid. He walks over to the table and screams at the diner, “If you DARE put steak sauce on my creation I will stab you with my carving knife.” The frightened customer meekly concedes.

    The next week, in walks PZ Myers. He is a noted critic of the restaurant’s pompous style and has been especially critical of the way the previous customer was treated. The restaurant refuses to seat him. Still, Myers waits by the door as the whole ceremony is repeated. Then a customer takes his steak, stands up, and walks it over to a waiting PZ.

    The room goes nuts. The diners threaten to kill PZ, rape his children, and have him fired from his job if he dares to do anything untoward to that steak.

    The chef yells at the trickster customer, “If I had known you were going to put ketchup on your steak, I never would have let you in here!” The diner responds, “Maybe so, but you did let me in, the steak is now mine, and I am giving it to PZ.”

    All eyes turn to PZ, who reaches in his pocket for the bottle of ketchup he is carrying.

    All hell breaks loose.

  52. Chris Bell said

    Yeah. The other site hated my analogy, so maybe don’t judge based on that. (I still think it’s good, but I’m starting to think it’s one of those things that only works in the mind of the maker.)

  53. Watercat:

    I know there isn’t likely anything I can do to help you at all, but I am very sorry for what happened when you were a child. Innocence is not something that can be replaced or repaired, and anything I say is likely to sound trite.

    I do want you to know, though, that there is justice, and that Christ already suffered for the actions of the priest who harmed you. That priest is guilty for Christ’s crucifixion. Christ was totally innocent and “took upon himself the sins of us all,” dying the death of a criminal. That priest was acting against Christ’s will and injuring the Church. If you can believe this, it might be cathartic to watch The Passion of the Christ – not in revenge, but to get an idea of how much he suffered for you. At any rate, you have my thoughts and prayers.

    Mr. Bell:

    I think the analogy would work from a purely materialist standpoint, assuming that there is nothing to the Catholic belief. From our own perspective, though, the host is Christ. Giving away the host is more like giving away a bride, or a child to be adopted. The father of the bride is justified in being upset if he thinks his daughter is being abused.

  54. Chris Bell said

    Maid,

    Thank you for that response; it’s very honest.

    Yes, the analogy is from a “materialist” point of view. It’s meant to show how unjustifiable the situation seems when you do not share the beliefs of the participants.

    You compare host desecration to physical abuse of your daughter. I would feel well justified using force to defend my daughter from physical attack. The law would support me as well.

    Here’s the part where I think Myers really hit home. Let’s follow your reasoning.

    -You cannot use violence to protect an object you are giving away

    -You can use violence to protect another person, especially one who is very near and dear to you

    -Catholics believe that the wafer is Christ

    -Therefore, Catholics are justified in using force to prevent host desecration.

    (Perhaps you would say that the Catholics should use only a minimum of force, but you would not agree that they can use no force, right?)

    I have intentionally left out some assumptions and small steps in reasoning, but this argument is substantially the argument I have seen on this website and on other sites. I find it appalling.

  55. Mr. Bell,

    you would not agree that they can use no force, right?

    No, I would accept that as a valid viewpoint. It’s the same that Nick expressed in the original post, …Peter’s attempted defence of his Lord. Take that as your model, however viscerally unsatisfying it may be. His is the cup, and He must drink of it; in the Eucharist God makes Himself vulnerable that we might partake of Him, and that vulnerability has implications now just as it did twenty centuries ago. As has been pointed out before, it’s much more in the Catholic tradition to die protecting the Eucharist, and I think (hope!) I could do that. Using force? I don’t think I could, even if I wanted to, since in the past I haven’t been able to even in self-defense. I’m not sure if I agree with Pedro (that moderate force is called for), or with Nick’s original post. [Part of our disagreement, I think, is based on the natural law/positive law disagreement. I don't think that the laws of any country really reflect moral law - they are an approximation, at best.]

    Of course, my analogy breaks down because Christ’s vulnerability is absolutely different from the vulnerability of any other human being: His is rooted in His own power and freely chosen. I should also clarify that “being upset” is not a euphemism for “sending death threats.” Even justifiable anger can be used to rationalize evil acts which I do not support.

    My main point is that, as Blueshifter said, discussion is more appropriate than desecration. This goes whether we are discussing people’s anger or the beliefs which underlie their anger. So, thanks for keeping everything theoretical!

  56. Chris Bell said

    Maid, can I ask you one other question? You wrote “it’s much more in the Catholic tradition to die protecting the Eucharist”. Someone on another site told me “there are numerous examples of Catholic Saints who laid down their lives to protect consecrated hosts.” Maybe you two were talking about the same thing; I don’t know.

    Could you give me some more specific examples of this? I looked myself and could only find Saint Margaret Clitherow, who was executed for harboring Catholic priests so they could conduct secret masses. (Of course, the Eucharist ceremony was often performed at the secret mass, but I don’t think that is what the other person meant by “Saints who laid down their lives to protect consecrated hosts.”)

    I’m just curious because I can’t figure out when such a thing would be a big issue. The only group that has really had a history of oppressing Catholics is Protestants, and since they are also Christians I can’t imagine that Catholics would be forced to defend the Eucharist with their lives.

  57. Well, I was thinking especially of St. Tarcisius, a young man who was killed by a group of his peers in Rome during the third century; they wanted to see the hosts he was carrying, and he refused to show them.

    You’re right – it’s not too easy to find occasions when you could say with certainty that someone died defending the Eucharist. For instance, Archbishop Romero (Mexico) was shot and killed while saying Mass, when he lifted the host for all to see, but one could make the argument that he was killed for his Catholic faith as a whole, not just in an attack on the Eucharist. And many times they were arrested and interrogated/tortured before being killed, so they would be unable, in practice, to defend anything.

    As for Catholics being persecuted, however, it happened often throughout history, beginning with the very first Christians. St. Paul, a Jew, originally went around killing Christians like St. Stephen. Then, as Christianity spread, the Romans came to view it as a threat, and later pagans of other countries turned on their countrymen who converted. Japan, Poland, Canada, Mexico – you can find Catholic martyrs in every era, even this one. (You can easily find them by doing a search on “Japanese martyrs,” etc.) On your last point, many Protestants disagree intensely about Christ’s presence in the Eucharist, and consider Catholics idolaters for that reason; c.f. Jack Chick.

  58. By the way, don’t worry about asking too many questions! It’s a good way to figure out how others think, and implies respect and interest. I’m glad to discuss this with you, though I’m sorry to monopolize Nick’s combox…

    So, Nick, when you get back from your education-imposed exile, don’t hesitate to disagree with or clarify anything I’ve said in your absence.

  59. James Ross said

    This entire episode is the best apology for the Spanish Inquisition I could possibly imagine. The Inquisition was established primarily to stop the sacraments being abused by people who really had no business receiving them, whether it be the Eucharist or Ordination. One merely has to print out Myer’s own statements to prove that such abuses do/did indeed take place. Torquemada, we need you now!

  60. Thomas Sutton said

    http://media.www.centralfloridafuture.com/media/storage/paper174/news/2008/10/24/News/Embattled.Senator.Vindicated-3503935.shtml

Leave a Reply

XHTML: You can use these tags: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <pre> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>